Comments for ed notes http://mussar-psych.org Torah Insights Into How We Tick Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:31:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 Comment on The Difference between Mussar and Self-Improvement by Sarah http://mussar-psych.org/2008/04/26/the-difference-between-mussar-and-self-improvement/#comment-13952 Tue, 20 May 2008 18:40:31 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2008/04/26/the-difference-between-mussar-and-self-improvement/#comment-13952 You did! Thanks! You did! Thanks!

]]> Comment on The Difference between Mussar and Self-Improvement by David Jaffe http://mussar-psych.org/2008/04/26/the-difference-between-mussar-and-self-improvement/#comment-13730 Fri, 16 May 2008 01:20:58 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2008/04/26/the-difference-between-mussar-and-self-improvement/#comment-13730 Yasher Koach for this article. I teach Mussar in the Boston area and am glad to have this piece to share with my students. What do you say to students who can't relate to a God beyond a distant creator who set the universe in motion and now is no longer involved? The idea of a personal God to emulate and feel close to is an alien concept to them. How can they understand the purpose of Mussar avodah as being about getting closer to Hashem, when, for them, there is nothing out there to connect with? I'd appreciate any eitzot in this area. Kol tuv, David Jaffe Yasher Koach for this article. I teach Mussar in the Boston area and am glad to have this piece to share with my students. What do you say to students who can’t relate to a God beyond a distant creator who set the universe in motion and now is no longer involved? The idea of a personal God to emulate and feel close to is an alien concept to them. How can they understand the purpose of Mussar avodah as being about getting closer to Hashem, when, for them, there is nothing out there to connect with? I’d appreciate any eitzot in this area.
Kol tuv,
David Jaffe

]]> Comment on The Difference between Mussar and Self-Improvement by Moshe Shuchatowitz http://mussar-psych.org/2008/04/26/the-difference-between-mussar-and-self-improvement/#comment-13307 Fri, 02 May 2008 08:44:48 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2008/04/26/the-difference-between-mussar-and-self-improvement/#comment-13307 Great and important question! Good answer, but it seems to me that the question is larger and broader than the answer. If this is the whole answer to this primary question "who needs Torah and Mussar why not just self improvement programs" then if in fact a person has the proper Torah perspective that the end goal is not just a better more successful life in this world but the attaining of merit to be worthy of the closeness to God in Olam Haba the original question returns for the real, ideal, process etc., "who needs Torah and Mussar why not just self improvement programs" Great and important question! Good answer, but it seems to me that the question is larger and broader than the answer. If this is the whole answer to this primary question “who needs Torah and Mussar why not just self improvement programs” then if in fact a person has the proper Torah perspective that the end goal is not just a better more successful life in this world but the attaining of merit to be worthy of the closeness to God in Olam Haba the original question returns for the real, ideal, process etc., “who needs Torah and Mussar why not just self improvement programs”

]]> Comment on On the Road to Bitachon by E.D.Becker http://mussar-psych.org/2006/09/13/on-the-road-to-bitachon/#comment-13038 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:02:25 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/09/13/on-the-road-to-bitachon/#comment-13038 Hashem is always modifying our lives to provide us with the maximum possible opportunities to achieve our mission and closeness to Him. The one area that He leaves to us is whether we choose to take advantage of those opportunities or try to dodge them. "All is in the hands of Heaven except for the reverence of Heaven." (Talmud Bavli Berachos 33b; Megilah 25a; Nidah 16b) The playing field is set by Heaven; how we play it is entrusted in our hands and shapes our future opportunities. Hashem is always modifying our lives to provide us with the maximum possible opportunities to achieve our mission and closeness to Him. The one area that He leaves to us is whether we choose to take advantage of those opportunities or try to dodge them.

“All is in the hands of Heaven except for the reverence of Heaven.” (Talmud Bavli Berachos 33b; Megilah 25a; Nidah 16b) The playing field is set by Heaven; how we play it is entrusted in our hands and shapes our future opportunities.

]]> Comment on On the Road to Bitachon by Nikki http://mussar-psych.org/2006/09/13/on-the-road-to-bitachon/#comment-12788 Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:52:08 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/09/13/on-the-road-to-bitachon/#comment-12788 When I studied Bitachon, I was left more confused than before I began my studies. I see it as a contradiction. On one hand, we have free will to make our own choices and our lives will continue based on those choices. On the other hand. HaShem is in total control of what our lives will be like. Is this not a contradiction? When I studied Bitachon, I was left more confused than before I began my studies. I see it as a contradiction. On one hand, we have free will to make our own choices and our lives will continue based on those choices. On the other hand. HaShem is in total control of what our lives will be like. Is this not a contradiction?

]]> Comment on Introduction to Mussar – the Real, the Ideal and the Process by Michal Segelman http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-47 Sun, 10 Dec 2006 04:52:55 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-47 I hope no one minds if I revive this thread. In all my above comments, I've been grappling with the question of: What is the difference between mussar sefarim and psychology self-help books (other than the obvious, that one is divinely inspired and the other is not). At times, self-help books refocus me just as well or better than a mussar sefer would, enabling me to get "unstuck". For example, both a mussar sefer and psychology would promote the idea of being proactive, psychology very directly and mussar perhaps indirectly. What is the difference? The answer that sits best with me for now is a combination of what R' Becker and R' Berger (and some others, off the blog) have said. The goal of psychology is to help you achieve mental/emotional stability, teach you how to interact more effectively with the world around you. The goal of mussar, on the other hand, is to help you become a holy, G-dlike person. A mussardik person by definition interacts effectively with the world around him, but that's just a pleasant side benefit as he works towards his goal of "vehalachta bedrachav". I've also been working on a related question of "what is the place of psychology/self-help books in my quest to grow in avodas Hashem." I think that psychology and mussar are related, even though their ultimate goals are so different, and as Rabbi Becker says, psychology is only a recent attempt to understand human nature. Since they are related, there are some concepts from psychology that can be used as powerful mussar tools. At times, focusing on psychology can be a distraction from the goal, since psychology divorces the concept of emotional health from religion. Once it's a pursuit of emotional health rather than holiness, it's self-serving, as Rabbi Becker said, and no longer enables us to transcend our earthly nature. At other times, working on a mental health issue seems to jump-start a mussar growth-spurt. The mental health issue could have been getting you stuck, and working on it (no matter what your motive is) clears the way for real growth. If we are discerning in how we read these books, and take the tools but leave the hashkafah behind, then it will always be to our advantage to add these tools to our repertoire. Rabbi Becker, do you agree with my conclusions? I'd love to hear your insights into my thoughts. I hope no one minds if I revive this thread.

In all my above comments, I’ve been grappling with the question of: What is the difference between mussar sefarim and psychology self-help books (other than the obvious, that one is divinely inspired and the other is not). At times, self-help books refocus me just as well or better than a mussar sefer would, enabling me to get “unstuck”.

For example, both a mussar sefer and psychology would promote the idea of being proactive, psychology very directly and mussar perhaps indirectly. What is the difference?

The answer that sits best with me for now is a combination of what R’ Becker and R’ Berger (and some others, off the blog) have said. The goal of psychology is to help you achieve mental/emotional stability, teach you how to interact more effectively with the world around you. The goal of mussar, on the other hand, is to help you become a holy, G-dlike person. A mussardik person by definition interacts effectively with the world around him, but that’s just a pleasant side benefit as he works towards his goal of “vehalachta bedrachav”.

I’ve also been working on a related question of “what is the place of psychology/self-help books in my quest to grow in avodas Hashem.” I think that psychology and mussar are related, even though their ultimate goals are so different, and as Rabbi Becker says, psychology is only a recent attempt to understand human nature. Since they are related, there are some concepts from psychology that can be used as powerful mussar tools.
At times, focusing on psychology can be a distraction from the goal, since psychology divorces the concept of emotional health from religion. Once it’s a pursuit of emotional health rather than holiness, it’s self-serving, as Rabbi Becker said, and no longer enables us to transcend our earthly nature. At other times, working on a mental health issue seems to jump-start a mussar growth-spurt. The mental health issue could have been getting you stuck, and working on it (no matter what your motive is) clears the way for real growth. If we are discerning in how we read these books, and take the tools but leave the hashkafah behind, then it will always be to our advantage to add these tools to our repertoire.

Rabbi Becker, do you agree with my conclusions? I’d love to hear your insights into my thoughts.

]]> Comment on Introduction to Mussar – the Real, the Ideal and the Process by E.D.Becker http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-27 Thu, 09 Nov 2006 04:23:32 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-27 Ephraim is now sitting Shiva for his father z'l whose levaya was on Monday. May we share besoros tovos. Best wishes, Malka Becker Ephraim is now sitting Shiva for his father z’l whose levaya was on Monday. May we share besoros tovos.

Best wishes,
Malka Becker

]]> Comment on Introduction to Mussar – the Real, the Ideal and the Process by Micha Berger http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-26 Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:11:47 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-26 Michal, you might be interested in my notes of a talk by Rabbi Becker. It's the third section of <a href="http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n019.shtml#10" rel="nofollow">my notes a mussar program</a> in May '04 in Houston. The topic of his talk was contrasting Mussar and self-help programs. I have nothing to offer in answer to your new question. Rabbi Becker seems to be checking in around weekly. -mi PS to Rabbi Becker: I like the new template. -mi Michal, you might be interested in my notes of a talk by Rabbi Becker. It’s the third section of my notes a mussar program in May ‘04 in Houston. The topic of his talk was contrasting Mussar and self-help programs.

I have nothing to offer in answer to your new question. Rabbi Becker seems to be checking in around weekly.

-mi

PS to Rabbi Becker: I like the new template.

-mi

]]> Comment on Introduction to Mussar – the Real, the Ideal and the Process by Michal Segelman http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-25 Thu, 02 Nov 2006 03:25:57 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-25 On a technical note, there's something called a "pingback" (or trackback?) -- you can start a new article which contains a link to here, and at the same time it will drop a comment in this thread that points to the new article. Back to the topic at hand. Thanks to both Rabbi Berger and Rabbi Becker for your respective answers. Combining your answers, I think you are saying that psychology is a study of the real, but does not provide an objective picture of the ideal. We can try to improve our real, but without that objective goal of "v'halachta b'drachav" there's no guarantee that we're moving in the right direction (and even if we are, with our naturally selfish negiyos, we're bound to lose focus along the way). Now, a new question. Rabbi Becker, you spoke about how important it is to "visit and revisit our urgencies." Can you elaborate on this? How does one identify their urgencies (or uncover new urgencies), what do you mean by "revisiting," etc? Thank you for all your time in answering my questions! -MS On a technical note, there’s something called a “pingback” (or trackback?) — you can start a new article which contains a link to here, and at the same time it will drop a comment in this thread that points to the new article.

Back to the topic at hand. Thanks to both Rabbi Berger and Rabbi Becker for your respective answers. Combining your answers, I think you are saying that psychology is a study of the real, but does not provide an objective picture of the ideal. We can try to improve our real, but without that objective goal of “v’halachta b’drachav” there’s no guarantee that we’re moving in the right direction (and even if we are, with our naturally selfish negiyos, we’re bound to lose focus along the way).

Now, a new question. Rabbi Becker, you spoke about how important it is to “visit and revisit our urgencies.” Can you elaborate on this? How does one identify their urgencies (or uncover new urgencies), what do you mean by “revisiting,” etc?

Thank you for all your time in answering my questions!
-MS

]]> Comment on Introduction to Mussar – the Real, the Ideal and the Process by Micha Berger http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-24 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:46:11 +0000 http://mussar-psych.org/2006/08/24/introduction-to-mussar-%e2%80%93-the-real-the-ideal-and-the-process/#comment-24 Rabbi JB Soloveitchik gave a lecture (Boston, after Shabbos Feb 3 1979) an essay linking the concept of Tzimtzum with the burning bush (the fire, which originally seemed to be a "bush burning in fire" is seen on second glance as only "a fire within the bush" and with Moshe's being more modest than any other person. Anavah, modesty, is described as an imitation of Divine Tzimtzum. -mi Rabbi JB Soloveitchik gave a lecture (Boston, after Shabbos Feb 3 1979) an essay linking the concept of Tzimtzum with the burning bush (the fire, which originally seemed to be a “bush burning in fire” is seen on second glance as only “a fire within the bush” and with Moshe’s being more modest than any other person. Anavah, modesty, is described as an imitation of Divine Tzimtzum.

-mi

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